HELP WITH A5-14 deploy


#1

Hello,

I new with mimosa, I want to depoy in small town (10K), (before with ubiquiti),
but I am not sure if A5 14 fix to this case: the terrain has a uniformed inclination of 2 degree, so can I inclinate a5 14 2 degree for cover it from the center? At 500 m of distance one side the circle around a5 is 15 m more of heigth and the other side 15 m less. So i mean a5 is 6 degree beamwith vertical, so a cpe can be link good until 3 degrees upper o lower from the ap no?
what is the minimum fresnel for this connection, because that the cpe maybe has only 2 meters of free vertical space with LOS to the AP.
can A5 link good (200mb per CPE) with any CPE LOS at 300-500 m?
what diference of heigth between A5-C5 could be the limit?

I`m sorry for my english .

Thanks


#2

Hi Martin (I have the ‘feeling’ you are from Spain and I know you?),

It all comes down to the absolute signal level between AP and CPE. If a CPE is very close is will still pick up signal from the AP while the CPE is 8 meters straight below it inside an office. Well outside the ‘beam’ sector.

As you must know the working elevation of any antenna is usually given for 3 dB loss (Ubiquity uses 6 dB, to get better figures. They cheat in that respect). But outside that beam there is still signal, only less. So basically it comes down to try and error and the spectrum. If the last is clear an CPE works fine with less signal then when there is lots of interference.


#3

Thanks Rudy,

I want to use mikrotik as client stx ac and maybe lhg because the gain.

I wan to use for 600 metters distance cpe and the some building can be
about 20 metters of diference but with LOS, do to think that will works
fine for 50-100 mbps connections with about -60 of signal and -80 noise
(for 100 clients)?
When a client had bad signal do you send to a omnitik placed in same
location of A5?
Do you think that Omnitik makes so much interference to A5?
Did you try ubiquiti gps ac solution also?, is mimosa the best solution for
give 50-100 mbps even using with mk cpes? Is so different the performance
of c5 vs sxt ac as client?

Is A5 better than A5c and 2x horn 2x2 for this case, because beamforming
and 4x4?


#4

We tried a A5-14 with up to 65 Mikrotik SXT-n and later all SXT-ac clients. If RTS/CTS is all set to work in the Mikrotiks it in itself works fine.
Distances where maximal 350meters from the AP so most of the clients had at least 2 streams of the AP in use for reaching higher MCS values. On 500 meters I wouldn’t know it that would still be the case.
Our signals where all set to sort of -50 to -55dBm.

We still have the Omnitik at the same tower but that cannot work well with 50+ clients. Speeds are really going down and people started to complain. Before we in fact worked with 2 Omnitiks to server 60 clients with max. speeds up to 20Mbps.
Now the A5-14 can server over 60 clients and still these can get 40-50Mb of traffic at peaks. Impossible with an Omnitik!

An Omnitik is no comparison to an A5. Even a Netmetal can’t do what a A5 can. And a Netmetal is already twice as good as an Omnitik. (I refer to the ‘old’ Omnitiks. Haven’t tried the new series though.)

I didn’t try Ubiquitty but what I follow on forums etc. I am still not a fan of theirs. In Wifi world its like cars. Ubiquity compares to Honda (good stuff and lots of sales) where Mimosa I would compare to Mercedes, Porche or similar. Just a class better…d

The A5’s are nice only for relative small cells. The moment the distance to client is bigger then lets say 500meters the multipath receipt from client to A5 doesn’t exist no more or little and you connect to only one chain.
We are going to try a 4x4 directional antenne system for remote 2x2 Mimosa client (5-7 km with C5c and 24dBi antenna) and see how that goes.


#5

Thanks Rudy, i has some dude more, please:

Is it not posible use SXT AC with reflector for mor than 500 metters with
similar speeds?or c5c?
Are you using 80mhz channel?
did you find any problem mixing ac and n SXT?why did you change all to ac?
More than 65 clients, did you see problems?
Is fine latency for voip?
Is so different the performance of SXT AC to C5?
What is the maximum total trhougput of the APs gives in peaks?

sorry for so much question but I did not find that information.


#6

Martin14;
If you mean a dish reflector that can held a SXT in its focus (like an LNB) yes you will probably get higher signal or more distance. But you have to remember that an A5 AP is actually 4 small sector antennas. At short distance even the sector (print, look for some pictures of the interior design) facing away from your client could still pick some signal or via multipath bounce signal. The CPE always needs 2 chains for the highest data throughput and in reality at short distance this is almost always achievable.
But put now an antenne at distance, even with a reflector the change of the AP can uses two of its four chains is still less so still less change for a 2 chain mimo connection. And you know that two chains theoratically give you double the throughput as a signle chain usage.
Personally I think at distances over 500, maybe 700 meters you’d better start to work with A5c’s and sectors.
Much more expensive yes, but at least always 2 chains (or 4 if choosen the special designed 4x4 antennas) in the same direction.

Yes, I am using 80Mhz channel now.
I did not find problems in mixing SXT-ac’s with SXT-n’s but with the ‘n’ models the 80Mhz is not possible. It will still connect to AP working in 80Mhz but only in 40Mhz mode.
And the CPU of the ‘older’ ‘n’ type is not half as potent as the newer SXT-ac’s. When you want to deliver high througputs you’d better have potens CPE’s too…special when you are still working with the csma + RTS/CTS protocol.

Also, the new chipsets for ‘ac’ are just better then the ‘older’ ones for ‘n’. And the protocol itself also saw improvements. (Like in channel interference avoidances. Read online info about the protocol)

We’ve had no problems running up to 65 clients on one AP in csma mode (Mimosa calls that ‘interop’ mode). But then again, most clients are on a 20Mb package only and even that is rarely used. But I could test with 50-60mbs to clients in 40Mhz channel.

Latency is fine, I’d presume. It was able to deliver streaming IPTV without too much buffers and that like stable ping. But we don’t have a lot of gamers that always want the lowest ping possible and on our network we hardly use VOIP. So I don’t know.

The performance difference between a SXT-ac and a C5 I don’t really know. The ROS is off course miles better than the web based OS of the Mimosa but ok. You also don’t need all the stuff.
The SXT’s are only 12dBi I believe whereas the C5 are 18 or so? At least more gain thus stronger signal and better ‘hearing’. The radio’s are only 24dBm on the C5’s where the STX’s are either 27 or 31dBm depending on model. But power is not usually the solution…

The C5’s are shielded and that should give them a good advantage over the SXT’s which are not.

But most important, the C5’s can work in the SRS (=propietary tdma of Mimosa) mode and the moment we switched our C5’s from ‘interop’ towards ‘SRS’ we saw an inmediate improvement of signals and lower error level.

We now have one AP with 44 (the limit!) C5’s in full SRS mode working. Last night I already tried a second A5 with 32 C5’s (it still has 20 SXT’s on it that we need to change) in SRS mode in the same frequency as the first, with the same 80Mhz channel and I did not see any worsening of the first AP’s signals (only 300 meters away!) and the signals of the second A5’s clients all improved too!

I had to switch back to get these SXT back on line but I am dying to have all these SXT’s replaced so we can start making proper tests on the two adjacent A5’ networks. I am planning to put 50 and 100Mb to my clients… let’s see :slight_smile:


#7

Thanks Rudy,

I am testing new buy A5-14 indoor before,

It connect to 2 C5 clients with out problem, but when i conect a mikrotik
ac or a wifi n client its frozzen and after it appear recovery web of
mimosa also flash power light in yellow.
I try also with c5 power supply (only 0,3amp) but same problem, maybe is
defective A5?or because power supply or configuration?i use with default
config in AP.

Any person ca help me?

Thanks very much!


#8

I am afraid I cannot completely follow what you do and what you mean.
But when you connect non Mimosa CPE to Mimosa AP you have to make sure Mimosa AP is set to work in “interip” mode.
Also use CPE mode for fixed antennas.
On the Mikrotik you have to set RTS/CTS parameters too to work always

The powersupply for the CPE is not good enough for the AP. Don’t mix them.


#9

Hello Rudy,

I am testig more a5, the results are good, but similar too omnitik ac in
same position with signals -55. I only testing with 10 clients, did you try
omnitik ac?what max clients?what is max throgthput with max clients?

I read about ptmp firmware for c5c, is it possible for c5, to use like
gigapop? will be similar a5c with 2 2x2 sectors, no?What are the max
clients for that cases in interop?

I hope in a future that mimosa offer at least frecuency reuse when AP is
mimosa with third party cpe, i think that is it technically possible with
gps Or PPtv2.

Thanks

Best regards


#10

I believe C5c only has CPE function or PtP software. I don’t believe that is possible on C5. That is only PtMP client. You cannot run C5/C5c as AP.

Frequency reuse is not possible with third party device since it is tdma feature. And tdma is propietary protocol. Unless Mimosa would be able to inject new firmware for Mimosa tdma in Mikrotik (Even the elevate line of eCambium is still not doing this after 2 years of promises.) this will not be possible.


#11

Oh, and up to now I only used one Omnitik-ac. So did not test really. Maybe in the future.
I am using 4x A5 now with 105 clients and two adjacent 80Mhz wide channels (that have overlaps of 3rd party AP) and we deliver up to 260Mbps to the clients. I still need to see someone doing that on Mikrotik…


#12

Hello Rudy,

Did you try stxsq ac, about 33 eur solution?i found error in firmware and bad performance, mikrotik says about new update is the solution, but not until now.

is it not possible c5c-c5 as access point?

what is the max distance with sxt and a5 for good perforance that you test and what is the worst signal that accept?did you test sxt+refector?

Did you monitor latency for voip, is it works fine for 65 cpe?what the max latency?maybe opus codec is the solution?any aolution for control latency?

Sorry, always a lot of questions!

Thanks very much


#13

I did not try the SXTsq-ac yet but I thing this should be discussed in Mikrotik forum.
C5c cannot be used in P2MP environment. Talk Mimosa about it.

Max. distance for CPE’s towards clients is depending of several factors. The signal strenght is important for the connection rates to be achieved which is important for the throughput to achieve.
Also the S/N ratio is important.
In a heavy use spectrum you need higher signals from and to the CPE to get better S/N rate so higher MCS can be achieved.
I am trying to get all my clients in the -45 to -55 dBm signal range and see -60/-65 as the maximum allowable. But it still makes a difference if your AP has to serve 5 clients, or 50.
With 5 clients if one has a -70 signal it won’t have too much impact on the other users provided this -70 client is not ‘stealing’ all airtime with continious downloads.
In a 40 or more CPE P2MP network the impact of one weaker signal client is heavier. Your P2MP network needs to be fast to handle traffic as fast as possible to free airtime for other clients.

It’s all about balancing and fine adjustment to get the best results…

I never monitored latency since I am not offering VOIP services. But people use Skype, Whatsapp, facetime etc. on our service so I’d presume that’s ok…

All my Mimosa AP’s are now working in SRS mode with a maximum of 40 clients and clients are connected with 50mb and 100Mb contracts. Most of the units have PHY’s of 300 or higher (80Mhz channel) and many units can get 200Mb downloads too…


#14

Thanks Rudy

Why did you now dont use sxt as cpe? Did you found problems?is is no c5 so expensive?
Did you try reflector distances?


#15

I did use a 60 CPE (All SXT-ac) network but top speeds were only some 30-40Mbps.
In SRS mode and the better C5 CPE (higher gain, shield) we can work in SRS (Mimosa tdma) mode which also gives the benefit of the AP controls the CPE (power output)
Now we can bring much hihger speeds to clients in distances up to 500 meters.

But we are now deploying more MT Omnitik-ac AP to serve all kind of MT antennas. This is for budget reason and most of these AP’s have little clients and up to big distances (up to 12km). For the lower price MT gives us better flexibility and speeds are not needed that high as my Mimosa network.


#16

Thanks, good strategy!
No problem about interference omnitik-a5?

What speeds are offering with omnitik ac and what max nummber of cpes at what signal and what protocol?i did not see so good perforance with omintik ac for several users same time for 20mb plan at 500 meters, and you?


#17

Hello Rudy,

Why did you leave sxt ac with a5?

I having troubles with this a5 with 30 sxt ac at lbetter of -60 singal ans all cst crt, i saw lonks dows al lot in mk status and clients conplains about speed and cuts, can you help me? Or anyone?

Whats distances,speed anclients can you has with mk onitik ac?did you tru disc5 ac?

Thanks

Best regards


#18

So, fun fact, Mimosa APs are kinda expensive. Not outside the range of what is out there, but they are pretty pricey.

The other issue a lot of people run into, is that C5s are good, and higher gain then a lot of other similarly priced products, but to go longer distances you have to go with a C5c + antenna. Which means you will be spending $170 or more just for the client radio and antenna. Kinda expensive, especially when you are already spending significantly more then average for the AP.

So, @Rudy is saying that he had good success with the A5, but because he doesn’t feel like he needs the speed at the moment (IMO, not a good plan, but I would love to have an entirely Mikrotik network. UNIMUS FTW!) he is using cheaper Mikrotik APs and CPE which give him more flexibility with what you can do with them. (Unlike Mimosa CPE which is pretty much just a bridge, most of Mikrotik’s equipment will be running RouterOS which lets you do pretty much whatever you want. Within reason.)

As far as your experience with clients. I am sure there are several people, including myself, that would like to help you here in the forums, but Mimosa Support is also really good and will probably help you quicker (they are paid to do it). If you would like help here, it would probably be best worked on in another topic, please make a new one.


#19

To answer some of the above remarks all in one…

Mikrotik is continiously improving their ROS, meaning the throughput is increasing little by little. I have now Mikrotik AP with a full ‘ac’ network on short distance that can deliver 50-100Mbp to the clients. The problem (and difference with Mimosa A5) is when several clients use the internet heavily the total speed over the AP fall back. This AP has some 40 clients.
On the Mimosa we don’t see this.
But I have to be honest, even on the most busiest hours of the day I rarely see AP’s having the need to deliver more then 60-80Mbps to clients anyway. Even when clients can use up to 100Mbps each! (Queue)

Interference is an issue on almost all our AP’s. It’s a matter of finding work channels that are as free as possible.
We’ve had some issue with C5’s that were performing very poor and we found the antena pointed to its assigned AP but also got signal from a second A5 that worked in full sync with same frequency.
Since we had no options to point it to a different AP we also setup 60Ghz AP’s from Mikrotik and although they can only serve 7 client max and are sector antenas it works our very well for us. These units deliver almost gigabit speeds to clients (not that the clients gets it, still has a queue limit of 100Mb) and are now even cheaper then a C5!

The C5’s have a high failure rate. Not so much the radio, but the ethernet connection. We have a failure rate of some 5% where with Mikrotik we have probably not even 0,05% failures. I think the problem is the high 48Volts. Mimosa would have been better to bring a Mikrotik/Ubnt compatible 24V passive PoE to lower the costs and to have less ethernet issues. (The CPE doesn’t need such high power. Mikrotik/Ubiquity can all work fine with 30dBi radios and extras over long standard 24V (4 pairs) cables. Even when the connector occasionally become wet they still work. 48V is just too much…)

Same 48V is also giving more issues with the G2’s. They become hot… in my opinion too hot. That’s obviously because the wifi radio AND the 220=>48V transformer are squeezed in a very small box. It’s too much. If the C5 would accept 24V we could then use the hundred of these transformer every Mikrotik/Ubnt ISP must have lying idle for the C5 and this way disable the use of the G2 build in transformer so it stays cooler and lasts longer. (These G2’s are good!)

We have had cases that a heavy rainstorm saw water ingress in the connector at the C5 and then after a while water seeped through towards the power supplying G2. Well, with 48V that is a burner waiting to happen. It sometimes kills a C5 and a G2 on the ethernet and both can be binned afterwards… :frowning:

I am a very regular user of the support chat so don’t worry, they know me as I do them and many issues I mention here are also mentioned and discussed with them.

In my humble opinion; When Mimosa would like to become a main stream bulk provider of 5th generation (‘ac’) the need to drop the price of the C5/C5c’s more but more important, get rid of the 48Volts for these client devices.


#20

I saw a lot of links dows of clients (sxt to a5) that are near at 20-60m, the setup is like Rudy cts-rts, 15 retries,client inmune noise, but i has this problem. I saw also in some clients but less links down. I try to to chane the other near client ro another ap with another frequency and solve the problem. I saw that in usage graph appers 25% interference, when load raise too. Any help to find a solution fot it??
Is not possible has near clients?

A another think, why did you leave combitanion sxt-a5? and what distance did you put omnitik from a5 in same pole/tower for avoid self interference?

Thanks you